So I know that balancing adventurers is a tricky subject in the Realm, for a whole range of reasons. I'm optimistic FF will make hybrid builds more viable and fun to play. The one sore point for my adventurer so far is that the new mysticism simply isn't useful for her.
Right now, sticking mist spells is difficult even for 189 SDM wizards. My experience with my adventurer (elf, base int 13, med 5) has been that she simply cannot stick myst spells the majority of times–it's not uncommon for a mass spell to affect nobody at all, even in large fights, while those that are affected typically shrug at the end of the round. In groups, I've stubbornly spent entire fights trying to (unsuccessfully) stick a single hold against things like kilrogs and wyrms.
As it works now, the shrugging system tends to force a caster (typically a wizard) into CC duty, as myst spells need frequent and proactive reapplying. For adventurers, who cannot reliably fill even this role, the entire spell school feels unwieldy–the old myst immunity system at least gave them short but reliable holds. (The problem was that 189 SDM wizards got long and reliable holds, and I understand the issues with that.)
The only remotely useful thing I've found is casting a single target Hold or Berserk and still getting a few retaliatory attack rounds; but in practice, this trick mostly means losing multiple attack rounds, being surrounded, losing mobility, and giving up the chance to damage priority enemies. This becomes especially true if the enemy has a long attack range.
any thoughts?
Yeah, dumb creatures should be easily controllable. I think they should do away with starting classes though. Just have a minimum and maximum for each stat per race. The only way "classes" ever even really mattered was when class-specific items were added.
Your base intell is too low. I made an elf wiz with 18 base intell, high str 10, dex 15, kept the endure low 5. What this does is she has enough intell that her casts are really good, and she can hit really well and carry stuff. I have level 3 med right now with GM Myst. I have no problem using my Myst spells. Warp Mind is actually hitting high, like higher than my light darts. I'm loving it. Confusion works great, too. You need high intell for it. My base stats will let me chant to at least 3x, too. And when I get some intell items, she can cast even better in battle. My best advice on making an adventuring toon is try to make one with similar stats to mine. Yes the health points are low, but if you stay invis, shift, summon, you can be fine. And eventually put endure or intell items on. And you'll find later on, they can hit well with weapons, so you get a really good adventuring mix.
Your base intell is too low. I made an elf wiz with 18 base intell, high str 13, dex 15, kept the endure low 5. What this does is she has enough intell that her casts are really good, and she can hit really well and carry stuff. I have level 3 med right now with GM Myst. I have no problem using my Myst spells. Warp Mind is actually hitting high, like higher than my light darts. I'm loving it. Confusion works great, too. You need high intell for it. My base stats will let me chant to at least 3x, too. And when I get some intell items, she can cast even better in battle. My best advice on making an adventuring toon is try to make one with similar stats to mine. Yes the health points are low, but if you stay invis, shift, summon, you can be fine. And eventually put endure or intell items on. And you'll find later on, they can hit well with weapons, so you get a really good adventuring mix.
I guess I don't fully understand the purpose of this char. With that low End, you can't really cast/swing from the middle of combat. Like you said, you're putting shift , invis, and summon, which if you do that, you're not getting and retaliation strikes. So then all your damage is spell based. Which, if it's spell based, why not just go full int Wiz then.
You're basically using AIEW tactics, by avoiding getting hit. Just so that when your hold does hit, you can attack? What am I missing here?
@Brancrese What you're missing is how to build an adventurer and how much more fun they are in the end. I don't use hold, and I use a wide variety of fighting techniques. When you first start out building an adventuring wiz, you do start with magic. But after you get the magic, you get your weapon skills. And what you find later on is you have a much better and more fun character to play than a boring all intel wiz or a boring all str giant. Building an adventuring wiz gives the best of both worlds. The spells are strong, but so are the weapon skills. When you only make the old style full stat characters, you have no idea how much you are really missing.
To be clear, I wear two Intelligence items and have 5 med, which puts me - if I remember right - around 110% SDM. Instead of putting points in strength, I use dex weapons and put my points into endurance instead. Thanks to base elf dex, the end result is a decent MDM and a high health pool, and so she's actually a very solid character. But mysticism shrugging is a serious waste of opportunity in the harder dungeons and it's better for her just to rely on her tankiness to multiblade and melee.
She was fun for the first 300 levels, but she peaked early. Now she's just very slow, very consistent, and very predictable…
When your intell is still that low, you probably will never be great in the harder dungeons. The ones that really rely on Myst, that's just to be expected. More rounded adventuring toons weren't made for that. The harder dungeons really require full stat toons and often grouping to get through. Adventurers are more for soloing. And you will reach a point the way the dungeons are now, where you kind of peak and that's it. I think the problem is more of that we need some higher level adventuring dungeons where you don't have to be full stat to get through them. The Realm never really updated that in all these years. People still feel they need to make all stat characters just to play. It should be more balanced than that. Maybe as they update the game, we'll see better changes for all that. We need new dungeons.
That sounds about right. I meant no offense, but that goes into my point, those chars just don't have real viability in end game. I get it as a solo char, etc… But I agree with you, that problem is with the balance of higher level dungeons, and the overall system; not the concept of those kind of chars itself.
Yes, when you really look into what's happening, it really touches on old issues. We have way too many people making all stat characters because nothing else will work in the higher dungeons. It's imbalanced. Adventuring toons are great up until you hit that wall. They cannot survive solo beyond a certain point. I think we just need a few areas that are more for higher level solo.
As Carrigon has mentioned, the issue is that hybrid stat builds that involve INTELLIGENCE are far inferior than all stat or hybrid str/dex characters.
AIEWiz - Typical
AIHWiz - More end / less spell dmg
ADEThief - Typical tosser and allows some use of spells with the 11 base int
ADOThief - Those thiefs that don't want to cast spells and have a little more str for armor (prob better for dagger / claw builds)
ASGWarrior - Typical
ASOWarrior - More dex than giant means more crits but not as a hard hitter
Adventurer…. Use a 16/10/12/10 as an example
With basic enchants and non-natural stat gear, a RoI, a RoE, a HoI, and a AoE … Adventurer with above stat line is like 28 / 22 / 17 / 15. With natural stat gear you can probably get the Str up to about 31-32 (fin belt, helms, lvl 300 weapons, etc).
This use to be more viable with the old mysticsm because it gave you the 17 int hold level. However, the shrugging mechanic seems to require 25+ int to be effective. 17 int with items results in a bout 110% SDM with GM Meditation. I think the Adventurer will get a significant bump when the level 600 and 900 weapons are in the game because the 2 handed weapons give 100% - 200% SDM to specific school of magic. The 2 handed sword would give you +100-200% Elementalism SDM. So that would be about 210% - 310% SDM for Elementalism.
That sounds good on paper - however, the Spell damage formula seems to rely heavily on intelligence. Sure you can have 310% SDM for Elementalism if equipping the level 900 2hs down the road … but you are modifying a damage level that is significantly lower than a 25+ intelligence Wizard.
Also - given that the dev's have already stated they are going to be reducing the base damage of spells to require wizards to wear SDM gear… it is going to hurt Adventurers even more as a result. If the goal is to have wizards be just as strong as they are now, but just needing a full set of equipment to do so … then you can see how the Adventurer spell damage is going to be impacted as well. Adventurer's typically are viewed as a battle hybrid wizard who can tank a punch and hit decent. The only real benefit of a Adventurer is that it can be a hybrid hitter with decent AoE clearing of lower level trash. However, with the talks of melee cleave abilities being added - even that purpose is reduced.
Not sure how the Adventurer can be "fixed". The only way I guess is through class specific items.
I think I'm already seeing the spell reduction now. Like my WoG is weaker than it should be. I'm just seeing something going on. But I do have alittle med left to get and I'm not wearing Thaum gear. The first toon I ever made on the original server way back in the 90's was an adventuring human with fairly high intell and good str. She did really well. I got her to over lvl 700 mostly soloing. But she was not as strong as an AIEW or ASGW back then. Still, I remember doing Demon Home and Greater Hives with that toon. But would she make it in our current Realm in a place like Maze or Foundry or something higher, probably not. If you don't have the full stats, and you are in an area that absolutely requires it for Myst spells to really stick long enough, if you are below that, you will probably die. I do think making some adventurer gear and stuff might be the best way to balance that out. It might make it better.
You have to remember that the game was not designed for 1k toons and as the level cap increased nothing was changed in the mechanics.
If there were more weapons and gear that were Dex based or combo Str/Dex then you could use a more leveled stat toon.
Not sure the current coding can handle it , but there could be Stat gated items. * You must have 12 base but no more than 18 base dex to equip this item.
I've started an ADEW recently, and so far it's pretty fun. A much more reliable caster than ADET (and I haven't GMed med yet) especially if you use an all intel set. Having him invised/shifted a lot, his low endurance doesn't really matter. And with the amount of Dex this char has, he can pack a punch with a thrower (Which help on single targets where AIEWs struggle) inbetween casting holds. ADEW seems like a very useful addition to a larger party (as I slowly build my way to doing 6 boxes in Anvil… although I need a new monitor first) as he gets a much earlier cast.
I just wanted to add, I am seeing better casting now that I have a Mageblade, two roi and a necro shirt. And I am GM Med. It's more like what I was doing on the Mistwalkers server with the same stats now. You just need to have those items and be GM Med. I still feel a tiny bit weaker even with all that, but I think if I get some more of the new armor, that will even it out. Or if I get a ammy of intell. I'm using an endure ammy for now.
