"All armor higher than level 500 will be craft only."

Started by Magicdealer

Magicdealer

Please don't do that. Crafting should be an optimal supplement. This is a dramatic change to how the realm loot works and, indeed, changes the very nature of gear hunting (which is a core mechanic). The ramifications to the economy and the reward mechanic for dungeons can not be overstated.

It is not interesting to enter a dungeon to farm up enough cogs so you can finally craft the next incremental upgrade. It feels bad, in concept. It removes the excitement of finding an excellent piece of equipment and replaces it with a mechanic that is uninteresting. As an optional system that doesn't replace anything including current loot drops - it should roll on a separate loot table so it doesn't further dilute loot chances and allows you to craft some of the find-only gear - but not the best gear - it's… better.

There are several different things you could do with a crafting system that doesn't wreck the entertainment value of dungeons. Here are some suggestions:
Crafting creates cosmetic gear - you have a new market in addition to the old one that doesn't compete with it.
Crafting creates an item that transfers item stats between like items - turn your Mage Hat into a Night Soul without changing any of the actual stats. Let townies dress for success.
Crafting creates temporary buffs like, for example, magic resist or immunity to specific spells for an hour. Immunity to dispel magic, spell blast, ect., would all be popular for certain dungeon runs.
Crafting allows you to add certain properties to weapons and armor. Instead of enchanting F/I/V/E, you farm up rare specific materials and craft them onto the weapon. Now you can play a hitter and stack up your gear without being crippled from a lack of chants. Perhaps some magic buffs remain magic only and crafting gains some buffs that are crafting only - like crafting retention?
Even short term damage/xp buffs would be popular.

Ryeder

I am with this. Crafting should be viable and rewarding but not the centerpiece for leveling your items. It forces players to craft or pay for crafting and completely removes the fun of running dungeons for items that we love. The alternatives that Magic posted are good ideas. I think loot needs to be buffed if anything but thats a different post. Please do not just FORCE crafting on to us. Let us decide if we want to use it while making it rewarding.

Gimli (Staff)

Hey guys,

I think you are making assumptions that this crafting will be like other games that require finding raw materials in the game. Back on September 3rd, we increased drop rates in preparation of this as we want to turn items into their own currency.
https://realmserver.com/forum/announcements/changes-for-september-3rd-2018-announcements

The plan is to use "crafting" as more of an equipment upgrade path where existing items are consumed as components to achieved the next tier of items. This creates a natural draw on the existing items including items that you may have already bound.

As an example of a recipe we are toying with, to craft an Expert Warlord Helm, it will take:
3 Proficient Warlord Helms
2 Familiar Warlord Helms
3 Mabonite Ores
1 Wasp Queen Hide (new item)

As an example of the master level (750) warlord helm:
3 Expert Warlord Helms
2 Proficient Warlord Helms
2 Familiar Warlord Helms
3 Mabonite
1 Fafnir's Eye (new item)

So you won't be digging through dungeons trying to collect 100 "cogs". You will be using items you already have!

Using this strategy has another benefit of allowing us to increase drop rates for items as we closely monitor the impact this has on the economy.

Filter

I don't know if you've noticed, but pro items are worthless right now (100kish, wl/elem the exception) and there's very little trading happening. Now you're taking even more of those items out of the game with crafting, combined with the binds and there's really no way for a new player to get started other than straight up shop food or farming rare ether/dv and praying. Any player just starting out will be faced with a brutal uphill slog of everything they find being basically worthless on top of nothing really being sold, and will find themselves really struggling to progress.

It's not fun finding something, asking chat for the value of an item and being told it's worthless despite how hard you worked for it. As it is familar gear is already a waste, as 250 rolls around so quickly so most experienced players outright skip it (running level 15 dungeons for it is boring.) The only expert set that makes a monster difference really is the WL set because throwers/wizards can just use an RB to get the MR they need for the higher end caves. The gap between the high end player and the newbie is already massive, adding things like this will only further make that gap even bigger, it's just not something you need.

You can already clear every cave in the game with mythril armor on hitters and pro gear on wizards (I've done it personally, yes that includes DP and HC.) It's not that the caves need to be harder, people already struggle with them big time for a variety of reasons. Adding higher levels of gear will only increase the very, very large gap between new players and vets. People need meaningful pvp, and items they can sell/trade actively (aka not BoE garbage) to remain interested. The game needs more balance and less sets, before it ever needs more items.

The sept 3rd patch made trying to find what you wanted to painful. I don't know what's going on with the loot but since that patch my wizards have found warrior gear non stop and my warriors wizard gear to the point I blew up all the gear on my thaum wiz and canceled my subs. If I wear HC baldies into HC, I dont find baldies. If I wear mage sigs and mc's to HC I get soldiers brooch's/ass chokers, bands/hoops etc. I hope that the loot tables don't have anything but pure rng in them (and the dungeon scaling/random generation for hero's/hc/fd isn't fiddling either) because wearing quality gear shouldn't feel punishing by finding stuff I don't want.

Khego

I don't know if you've noticed, but pro items are worthless right now (100kish, wl/elem the exception) and there's very little trading happening. Now you're taking even more of those items out of the game with crafting, combined with the binds and there's really no way for a new player to get started other than straight up shop food or farming rare ether/dv and praying. Any player just starting out will be faced with a brutal uphill slog of everything they find being basically worthless on top of nothing really being sold, and will find themselves really struggling to progress.

If there is less of them because they're being taken out of the game with crafting… they're no longer 100K worthless.

Magicdealer

I appreciate the response, Gimli. I apologize if I'm coming off harsh. I appreciate all the work, the time and effort, that the dev team has invested in updating and upgrading the realm. And I know it sucks to hear people (myself) complaining about things a lot. In a way, it's a sign of the success of the development team in reigniting interest in this old, old game.

Cogs is a placeholder term for whatever item(s) become the crafting materials. As long as the best gear is coming from crafting, you're removing the excitement of running a dungeon for loot. There's a disconnect between being able to run a dungeon and maybe get a BiS drop (also why I dislike how segregated all the item drops have become), and running a dungeon to find the next upgrade piece in your chain of item upgrades. It feels bad. It doesn't sound like fun gameplay or a fun advancement path.

How many successful mmos do you see where the very best gear comes not from the boss fights/chests but from crafting? Not many, and there's a reason for that. It's not exciting, or engaging. Speaking more bluntly, it negates a lot of that addictive dopamine hit people get when finding good items in dungeons. You remove that big hit when a BiS item drops and replace with a much, much smaller reaction.

Crafting should be a progress path for people who aren't finding mid-tier upgrades to help kit them out for that end game content, not a system supplanting that end game content. It should be a buffer for extremely bad rng.

I've already offered some alternative suggestions you can use for crafting. I guess what I'm missing here is the long-term goal you're trying to reach here.

Do you think players want crafting to become mandatory for endgame gear? Are you trying to make old, bound gear useful somehow? "We want players to craft endgame gear" doesn't explain why that is a design goal at all. "We want crafting to be viable" also doesn't explain why it's necessary to make what amounts to a large change to the fundamental gearing process of the realm online rather than use a more traditional crafting approach.

I do understand that I'm not entitled to a response, or for the game to change to match my preferences specifically. I am concerned though because this feels like a step away from a core pillar of realm gameplay, and one that is less exciting, less engaging, and less rewarding than the current system.

Gimli (Staff)

Hey Magicdealer,

No offense taken. The end goal, in case it wasn't clear, is to convert items into their own currency as an upgrade path; To create an item sink. Creating item sinks creates a healthy economy as it means there is a continuous draw on existing items in the economy.

Not having an effective item sink will cause the economy to deflate, which is where much of the familiar and proficient gear is at now.

We want players to feel rewarded when they find any item in game which currently is not happening. Creating an effective item sink should help alleviate that.

The plan is to use "crafting" as more of an equipment upgrade path where existing items are consumed as components to achieved the next tier of items. This creates a natural draw on the existing items including items that you may have already bound.

Using this strategy has another benefit of allowing us to increase drop rates for items as we closely monitor the impact this has on the economy.

Magicdealer

If the goal is to create an effective, continual item sink, then I don't believe the expressed plan will accomplish the desired goal in the long run. In the short run, you'll have people crafting for the end game gear. But once everyone (or the heavy players at least) are sitting on that, you're back to purposeless accumulation.

I would again suggest that instead of setting up crafting as the exclusive source of end game gear, you consider alternatives. Put in a crafting feature that breaks down magic gear into crafting components, then utilizes those components for desirable temporary buffs. A sink in a game should have an ongoing use to be successful. I know game design can allow for a number of short and long term sinks, but extra caution should apply to something that, again, significantly changes how players approach gear and loot in a gear and loot based game.

Create a potion that transforms your appearance into a random realm monster for two hours. Craft an oil that increases damage against a specific alignment or creature type (non-stacking, of course). Bolster your shield, allowing it to block and absorb twice as much for two hours. Give your robe a % chance to ignore incoming spell effects. Heck, even breaking items down and converting them into gambler's lucky keys would be an option. Or a two hour buff that suppresses the death penalty for people experimenting with dungeon strategies.

You want to be looking at consumable items. That way 1. crafting is useful 2. creates a use for excess gear and 3. doesn't fundamentally change the existing dungeon hunting experience.

Ozmer

Piggybacking off of Magicdealer's concept and aiming it towards weapons/armor: deconstructing the fam, pro, exp gear could yield both materials and magic essence. The materials could allow for creation of the gear - similar to what you are already planning (but with the added step of deconstruction that could use shop purchased, limited use (gold sink) tools. The materials could be used to create a variety of gear depending on purchased common/uncommon blueprints (unlimited use/crafting things available by drop), rare blueprints (limited use, permenantly upgrades stats) dropped in caves/outdoors, and epic (one-time use, applies a cosmetic effect) dropped during special events. The magic essence could allow for a separate form of crafting to create the temporary boons as he mentioned - This requires a steady stream of gear to deconstruct for essence, requiring a continued purchasing of the limited use tools (setting up the long-term gold-sink). This would take some balancing to make sure essence consumption and drop rates relate well - someone should be able to have boons "most" of the time without having to dedicate 100% of their time to gathering essence.

How it would look; deconstruct fam/pro/exp gear get fam/pro/exp fragments and essence. Recipe could be similar to what you listed following the deconstruction: 3x Proficient Warlord Fragments, 2x Familiar Warlord Fragments, 3 Mabonite Ores, 1 Wasp Queen Hide, 10x Magic Essence. The benefit being you don't have to use helmets to get a helmet, the fragments could be from any warlord gear. Also the deconstruction, as mentioned, creates the gold-sink.

From there a rare drop blueprint could be something along the lines of "Warlord's Expert Helmet of Defense" requiring 1x Expert Warlords Helmet, 10x Defensive Fragments (from deconstructing Bracers of Defense or Helmets of Defense), 25x Magic Essence. This would also keep standard drops relevant; it might even make density gear relevant for those who would want to improve the durability of their gear. This could also provide an income stream for low level or new players to higher level characters that don't feel like grinding for hours in a low-level dungeon.

An event could allow for an epic drop of something like "Aspect of the Minotaur" (like the mino mask), "Aspect of Invisibility" (makes the helmet invisible, not the wearer), "Aspect of the King" (turns the helmet into a crown/circlet) etc. Being cosmetic and event-bound, they would likely only require a helmet, the blueprint and some essence to craft. There could be a common "remove aspect" blueprint that would (for more essence) allow for a removal of the aspect blueprint - putting a character or account bound version of the blueprint in their inventory. This would continue the tradition of cosmetic gear, but allow it to have the additional benefit of the base-armor's stats.

Masterdevil

Please don't jump more than 1 tier in order to craft an item. What I mean by this, master gear should only require expert gear at most to be crafted. Cut the pro and fam requirements. Nobody farms those. Especially fam stuff is so rare and vague these days, going out of your usual way to actively farm lower level caves in order to craft expert or master gear seems terribly frustrating.

Chas

Or even a way to downconvert higher tier into lower tier would be ok in my opinion. I could see myself shredding a pro item down into a fam item. Personally I am sitting on WAYYYY more pro items than fam items because you outlevel the fam dropping dungeons in 20 minutes and then who wants to go farm those forever for drops… pro/expert have a much higher drop level range.

Vickstress

I think everyone is missing something. You need your lower gear to prestige with. Unless you already have tons of it, like most people already do. Don't forget about that point, you wouldn't want to destroy items that you are going to need again if you multibox 6 toons like I do. Gear is more expensive the more accounts you have. I have 8 accounts and find it difficult to keep them all maintained. But I'm not a hardcore Realmer. Just my $02. cents.