Elphame's Arena Ruleset Feedback

Started by Gimli
Gimli (Staff)

Please post any feedback about the ruleset here so we can keep them consolidated in one spot.

Rebecca Riles

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes. I am on Elphame's Arena and I can't hit anything with my training blade. I created an AIEW and was given level one dagger skill but my training blade is a short sword so I really can't do anything. So far I am not impressed.

Khego

Quick take after a few hours, felt cute, might delete later…

1) Mana is pretty brutal… suggest increase drop rate or add some regen.
2) Some dungeon locations don't make sense (low level dungeon in high level zone)
3) Gold still seems too easy, maybe I haven't hit enough repair bills. But even repair bills feels pretty un-interactive. Would prefer to see higher priced consumables that actually do work. Examples:
*Make Invul Pot last more than 4 rounds
*Make rewarding interactions require things like Potion of Lightning Shield
*Make Monster Summoning Scrolls good (disclosure, I didn't try them, I just assumed they suck)
*Scroll of Enchant X

POOR

As Khego stated, mana is really bad at the moment. I am as I always have since '96, soloing a AIEW.

First thing that I noticed was just starting with 25 mana. I started as demonic to help with being jumped in most zones because evil npc's swarm more zones than good ones. This started me with acid sphere, summon zombie, hold monster. I bought drain life(before I realized that it wouldn't matter lol) I will say I noob'd it up a little by trying to take on North Heavenwood npcs first. Starting with a wolf. Summoned a zombie(5 mana) to defend for me. Used acid sphere(1 mana each) 3 times with zombies attacks to kill the wolf. Got like 100some xp. This left me with only 17 mana left. So I decided to head to Ratling Run to make my little mana last longer. Used 17 acid sphere's to kill a handful of rats and bats. Ended up with 939 xp total when I ran out of mana. That is a little less than 1/10th of the way to level 2. This left me with only one reasonable option if I choose to stay soloplay and that is to use throwing weapons to level. Well after getting a Amulet of Combat from a stranger(Thanks btw to that person!) that helped a little. But with the 3 buildpoints we start with and AIEW not starting with throwing skill, had to use 1 to get level 1, and needed 3 for level 2 throwing. So HAD to get level 2 with level 1 thrower with a temp steel thrower…Took me a while to do that but finally did. Still grinding slowly with only like 22 mana to drop off of 137 total kills. Also just half way to level 3 lol.

So the point of that ^^Wall of text^^

Mana is an issue in this beta so far.

I have a couple of suggestions that may or may not be helpful(ideas really)

1) Make mana a regenerating resource. For example everyone has 1,000 mana, mana regens at 1 mana per 5 seconds. Something along those lines.

2) Keep mana same as it is, start people off with more mana when they make a toon(especially wizards).

3) Keep mana same as it is, make it drop 100% of the time off all npcs in game, doesn't have to be much even 1-4 mana per npc with harder npcs maybe dropping more would be better than it is atm lol.

4) Bring back the ability to buy mana from store. Make it stupid expensive if you have to, just make it so we can at least buy it again lol.

Just my suggestions regarding mana.

POOR

Just found a bug. So I wanted some mana to try and get a few decent xp kills. So made 4 wizzies on my alt account I never use to give him what little mana they start with. Well I guess they have the level 50 perm house thing @ lvl 1. Because one of them is bouncing on a mirror wall trying to leave his house. Almost as if his 'home town' is one that isn't in the game now. 2 came out in WL, and 1 came out at EL.

Gimli (Staff)

Thanks for the feedback so far! I’ll make some tweaks over the week to try and address some of it.

Please keep it coming!

Khego

Dungeons should drop level appropriate gear. Newb dungeon dropping stuff with level 50 req feelsbadman.

Khego

Maybe unpopular opinion here…

Do away with hot zones. Felt clunky going to SHW for better XP when the progression shoulda been L/K Road.

However, starting XP did feel like a pretty unclimbable mountain when you need 7 or 8 levels for meaningful skill upgrade.

Based on a comment from @Gimli on Discord about bell curving XP so not to punish low levels I'm assuming there's a code hurdle there? Maybe low hanging fruit is a XP bonus for the first 5-6 zones? Or perhaps some baubles of XP within those zones?

POOR

Another bug found. Couldn't equip my weapon once in combat. Not sure if intended that way or not. Just a heads up.

leek1

-IMO either force no groups or bump it up to 3 players. (Pref solo toon play for pvp purposes IMO)

-Give teleporters the ability to take you to your house so sinking a precious build point into sorc and/or dying isnt your only way home.

-I grinded like a madman and made it to level 6 on two hitters, during that time I found approximately 150 mana, rendering casting as a primary combat skill basically impossible at this point had I been a wizard.

-Money is very plentiful. I racked up like 70k between level 1 and 5 and repair bills were negligible. IMO return mana to vendors at an extreme mark up or make it a regenerating resource with mana orbs/bananas. Make consumables viable, I'd love to rationalize a high end character that sinks precious build points into theurg. Make end/theurg apply to scrolls.

-Low level EXP rate is punishing, grinding for 8 hours to unlock expert two-handed sword is a bit much. Curving it seems like a reasonable solution and I'd also suggest unlocking PVP in the Havenwood zones. If I'm going to attack flame ratlings and lost sailors for literally hours give me the thrill of being jumped or jumping someone.

-Build point cost needs to be adjusted to the adjusted level cap to encourage build diversity. Between mana scarcity and build points the current meta would consist of an ASGW with Maul (Maul of the Mists dropping off of bounties in N. Havenwood) and Critical Strike GMed and thats it. That makes for a pretty bland PvP environment.

-Global yellow texts for the first person to hit a level, find an item, kill a boss, or PVP kills would be cool.

-Maybe this is already in and I didn't find any but, I'd love to see the Challenger Server style diablo randomized loot at all level ranges.

Khego

-Money is very plentiful. I racked up like 70k between level 1 and 5 and repair bills were negligible. IMO return mana to vendors at an extreme mark up or make it a regenerating resource with mana orbs/bananas. Make consumables viable, I'd love to rationalize a high end character that sinks precious build points into theurg. Make end/theurg apply to scrolls.

applause

Make endurance useful, make unused items already in game useful, create fun gold sink.

StuckIn1995

Is there any way to scale leveling like a traditional MMO? As a player who has played very grindy games (Darkfall, Asheron's Call Darktide, etc.) and plays full loot drop games I am no stranger to grind or PvP. That said killing rats for 120 XP and grinding 10k just to hit level 2 definitely made me less interested in testing anything.

In most modern MMO's even grindy games its not super grindy to get the first 20% of levels done to get most of your basic skills. Would like to see level 1-20 be significantly quicker so people can start to get a few basic skills/abilities unlocked. Would still require some thought process. If it gets grindy after level 20 and SUPER grindy after level 60 that's fine, just suck people in a little better if possible. If levels cant be changed perhaps XP bonuses at lower levels can be raised? Again, I am sure there is a handful of hardcore players here starved for content who won't mind but me personally Ill just keep playing the other server if its gonna take 3 hours to hit level 4 lol.

Ring of Ugliness got me on one of my guys which can't be removed, with this set up it would take forever to get remove curse, maybe add a scroll or remove them from loot table? Its been so many years since that penalty has been relevant I forgot.

Would also like to see transparency on what items are in this test and what level. Are we going to see 600 weapons or no? This significantly impacts build diversity and thought process around that kind of stuff. If you look at OSRS or Classic WoW for example - players knew what to expect or what items would be available, would like to see more transparency around this kind of stuff. Either keep it completely a secret/closed beta or just tell people what item/gear is going to be in. (just my 2c).

Anyway thats my first couple thoughts I got bored super quick because it couldn't suck me in - let people get to level 20 and get a few skills and then hit then grind wall climb.

StuckIn1995

-Money is very plentiful. I racked up like 70k between level 1 and 5 and repair bills were negligible. IMO return mana to vendors at an extreme mark up or make it a regenerating resource with mana orbs/bananas. Make consumables viable, I'd love to rationalize a high end character that sinks precious build points into theurg. Make end/theurg apply to scrolls.

applause

Make endurance useful, make unused items already in game useful, create fun gold sink.

I think item sink would help the main server as much as gold sink - dry up useless items no one wants to buy. If they could create an alternative currency or vendor that buys most of the items that there are too many of - such as Wrath, EA, 300 weapons, basic magic jewelry, familiar gear etc.

For example: Vendor sells FIN DYES (only way to obtain them) 5,000 points per. T SASH (cosmetic only) only way to obtain them 10,000 pts. per. or expert crafting reagent boxes, etc. etc. but you can sell an Executioner for 300 pts. or a amulet of intel for 100 points. You could implement things like mass shift, mass invuln for insane prices for a big grind. If there was enough cool stuff there these items would quickly dry up and start to at least disappear/be removed from the economy. System like this could be tested on a server like this - which is what I was hoping these kind of servers would be for - to test systems that could fix/help main server.

Anyway, got a bit off topic - but I agree gold sink is good but personally I've never been worried about gold - whether an item sells for 500k or 3mil isn't a huge deal to me, its is there enough demand for said item and WILL it sell. Right now our population is low across the board so there is more item than demand even for items "worth" a good amount no one buys anything because there is not enough demand because items become useless/outgrown by the community at whole and then if someone did need one because we have no item sink there is 5,000 laying on floors for free.

Fear

First, just wanted to say that I absolutely loved the feel when playing on this yesterday – so, great idea from the devs to get this going. This was the first time since 1997 or so that I really felt the original TRO experience. I've never been more excited to find gold nuggets and glass orbs, let alone purchasing and using a Tempered Steel Maul.

I agree with a lot of what has already been said on here and just wanted to throw in my two cents.

Selfishly, I was hoping this would be limited to 1-player only, which could lead to actually grouping with other players (like the old days I remember running Fufu's with friends) instead of us just running multiple accounts as a means to an end, but the 2 account limit is a solid baseline either way.
– IMO, when you can only play one toon, you really feel invested in that one toon and every decision becomes that much more important from stat allocation to what you decide to spend your BPs on. In contrast, when you can supplement those decisions with another one of your toons in your group, it kind of takes away from the experience in my opinion. In an MMO shouldn't we want to try to find others to play with who could fit those roles that our one toon cannot – Or, just persevere through the hardships and grind out until we can solo the way we would like.

Really like the idea behind Theurg and would love to see professions play a role, like becoming an alchemist to brew invul potions (that last longer and are maybe stronger because of our alchemy level?) to save on MCs in dungeon runs.
– Maybe even have GM level potions available to those who choose Alch like a "Refracting Potion" that you have to find special ingredients to learn and brew that not only acts as an invul potion, but then reflects the mitigated damage back onto the dmg dealer? Could be interesting in PVP too?

Southpole

I played this test server until about level 5 and called it quits. It was just way too grindy. I already have to run the same dungeon on main 10,000 times for a chance at the new 900 weapons - I really don't want the same repetitive, frustrating game play on a soon-to-be-wiped server. As one of the only PvP'ers left on the main server I look at this server as an opportunity to PvP - I don't want to spend all day grinding.

Some suggestions:

-Wildly increase xp and drop rates
-Close dungeons. Have a small end-game world boss area for players to fight over. These bosses have a small chance to drop end-game gear of all kinds.
-Have less restrictions on mana. This allows more archetype diversity which leads to more interesting PvP.
-Tighten up the damage ranges for weapons (example: starter weapon: 30-60, uncommon weapon: 35-65, rare weapon: 40-70, mythic weapon: 45-75), remove level restrictions and increase drop rates so that a few of the rarest weapons can be found over the course of the month. This will lead to more balanced PvP combat. PvP is not very interesting when someone super-equipped stomps an under-equipped player. At least with this system the under-equipped player is not at such a severe disadvantage.

I've also been toying with this idea but I haven't completely worked out how to have these without impacting balance:

-Some randomly generated mid-tier and end-game items that fit within a range of normal. They don't need to be god-tier, just something a bit better than your usual weapon. Perhaps a mid-range weapon with a light-dart proc, an item that accepts 1-2 enchantments, a ring with str/int on it, a cowl that procs fire shield, an axe or bracers that proc a small heal, just random items which could add interesting dynamics and get people swapping gear.

Khego

Really like the idea behind Theurg and would love to see professions play a role, like becoming an alchemist to brew invul potions (that last longer and are maybe stronger because of our alchemy level?) to save on MCs in dungeon runs.
– Maybe even have GM level potions available to those who choose Alch like a "Refracting Potion" that you have to find special ingredients to learn and brew that not only acts as an invul potion, but then reflects the mitigated damage back onto the dmg dealer? Could be interesting in PVP too?

Agree. Having play tested and provided feedback for multiple iterations going back to Mist Walkers, I've learned we can all come up with awesome ideas but there's always the barrier of the ancient code that TRO is built upon. What I like about improving Theurg and Alch is it's existing real estate and a gold sink to boot. Improving outcome of consumables (and raising prices) seems like an easy win.

Some suggestions:

-Wildly increase xp and drop rates
-Close dungeons. Have a small end-game world boss area for players to fight over. These bosses have a small chance to drop end-game gear of all kinds.

Agree, with some small caveats. I think the seasonal rewards and how to earn them will need to be well defined. Is it highest level? Is it most player kills (this can be cheesed with alts). If it's highest level, what's my incentive to PvP? What about a game currency (coppers, silvers) that only drops from World Bosses? The most of this currency acquired wins? I don't think it would always need to be the same, either. How to "win" could be different from season to season.

In any of these scenarios, I agree to increase XP and drop rates, at least for first ~30-40% of content. As much as I actually love the grindy feel around the Havenwoods, I don't think you'll get much participation if that's the focus.

For the dungeons, yeah I agree. But the above ground progression needs ironed out for sure. After SHW it didn't feel very fun as I was just constantly jumped by mobs I couldn't kill and/or robbed blind by thieves.

Oh! And if you want PvP interaction, reduce the first round flee chance!!!

Gimli (Staff)

Elphame's Arena has been updated to address much of the great feedback here. If you have more please fire away for the next testing phase.

Shmaboo

You might want to revisit repair costs in Elphames Arena. My tempered steel maul is at 87%. Repair costs 2840gp, but buying a new maul would only cost 2187gp.

Khego

So, my comment about flee % a few posts up was specific to PvP. Maybe you can't change PvP without changing PvP? But the low flee % is pretty brutal in North and West Havenwood combined with the hyper aggressive jumping of undead.

That being said, I do like the concept and being faced with decision to fight or try to flee. Alternate toon creation choice is to give up the free heals and be evil (to avoid the jumping). There's a flaw there tho, as most the stuff to kill is evil and I'll eventually end up good anyways.

A few different paths you could go… reduce the overworld jumping? Increase the flee % for PvE? Add more good and neutral mobs? Remove many evil mobs from low level zones? Lock toons into their alignment (potentially only changed via a consume?).

Not sure which is correct, to be honest.

Shmaboo

For an ASGW, it takes over 50 build points to GM crit strike (1/6/10/15/20). Is that intended? Seems excessive if we're capped at 100.

Khego

For an ASGW, it takes over 50 build points to GM crit strike (1/6/10/15/20). Is that intended? Seems excessive if we're capped at 100.

Don't run all strength? ;p

Decisions are good!

Khego

Myst level 2 and Med level 1 (Yes I know low level)… landing a hold like ~15% of the time? And no duration increase from level 1 myst to level 2? Maybe mobs stats tuned up to rival FF?

Saw someone else comment that spell damage didn't increase from spell level 1 to 2 or 2 to 3.

Regardless, the point here is perhaps the power curve perhaps needs adjusted to level 100 cap? Would love to see a gradual but known increase every time you level up a spell circle. Also maybe same for mob resists? Maybe those are overtuned?

And… unpopular opinion: The XP bell curve… I'm level 26 and still getting 2K XP per fight in SHW. While I like this for BETA TESTING… maybe too much when the real deal comes around. Feel I should have moved onto DWW or LKR by now but why would I?

Khego

Content this round lining up better but still needs lots of love.

I wouldn't focus on the levels of the mob or the damage per se?

But the group size for sure (Only 2 toons vs 6 on FF), the # of attacks, the range and the movement speed. Anything that's going to get multiple attacks while I'm "self-stunned" is gonna blow me up.

Example… imps regardless of level seem easier than Fenris, until maybe Imp King.