(LOCKED) Beta Elphame's Arena Ruleset Feedback

Started by Gimli

Khego

Level 3 Theurg… Shifting Potion lasts 1 round. Seems bad.

Cannot use OoGH in combat? Doesn't show on 'Use' list.

StuckIn1995

I like the patch notes, nice work gents. I am going to try to test some more soon - maybe after the next round of tweaks. Sounds like a very good patch yesterday. XP Bell curve is gonna be nice!

Khego

Without perms on weapons, tried casting temp Venom on weapon.

Worked well enough but would like longer duration. Clicking spell, targeting weapon every 3 fights will get pretty tiresome. Willing to pay higher mana cost for longer duration.

Feel there's a lot of wasted space here, in the space of weapon buffs, curses and shields. Especially where you can't perm/enchant. Mix in actually useful consumes (Potion of Lightning Shield, etc). That's free real estate.

Also, not sure if possible, but skipping the target weapon click would be nice QOL. Just right click 'Venom' and applies to weapon.

WhyteMajik

I didn't get to play the first go round with 6 man groups, just trying this now with 2 man groups. But I feel like the group member c ini ont should maybe be tried as 3 man groups. Gives a nice number for a well rounded small group of people.

Khego

Level 2 Elem and Level 1 Med… Fire Orb does ~22 damage. Find AoI to increase INT 3 points and it still does 22 damage.

Would be nice to see mana displayed as XX/YY. Or someway of seeing current vs max.

Shmaboo

My thief put 5 amulets, 4 rings, the myst mastery book and a mincemeat pie in a leather pouch and handed it to my wiz. The wiz opened it and only found 2 ammys and a ring, no book, no pie. He handed it back to the thief. The thief looked in the pouch and found everything he had put into it was still there.

leek1

With the reduced level cap build points become king, most characters will be able to GM 3 skills.

With a weapon skill, critical strike, and some combination of one school of magic and some meditation would be the likely setup for most characters given mana being a finite resource necessitating a melee weapon skill and the current lack of Theurg-based consumables with any significant utility or duration to replace magic schools or magic as a whole, I have a few suggestions.

-Limited mana and build points essentially alignment locks casters, which is something I am not opposed to. With that said the signature spell buffs for each circle (Str/Nimb/Flame Blade/Venom Etc) were designed with enchanting in mind. Buffs need to have longer durations to compensate for the lack of perm/enchanting. The increased duration can foster creative use of build points (A hitter elementalist, a necromancy thief, etc). Perhaps strengthen these effects by the character maintaining evil, good, or neutral alignments. Let my caster cast flame blade on my hitter character and it would apply the buff to his equipped weapon.

-Potions, scrolls, and orbs need to be usable in combat and have a more noticeable increase in potency with theurg and endurance. Perhaps lock the in-combat use of OoHealing behind level 2 Theurg, use of OoGH behind level 4, etc for balance purposes or make them weaker without the skill investment. Make alchemy a worthwhile investment of build points as a source of healing and utility, evaluate their build point cost if based on intel currently.

-I have theory-crafted caster builds for this server but hitters become trickier. The lack of enchantments impact movement rate etc which will be huge balance issue for PVP. Perhaps incentivize investment into skills like Acrobatics by giving them more purpose, in this instance, increasing movement rate. With the leveled weapons being essentially removed, give me a reason to invest in Shield Use through an enhancement to the Charge ability.

-Critical Strike requires 50 build points for most Giant builds and magic/melee damage scaling incentivizes having all of your stats in strength or int. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm all for taking an alternative route to the normal ASGW cookie cutter character with this in mind but Str/Int hybrids have always struggled on The Realm. Dex is simply more efficient when you look at a cost/benefit analysis of damage VS build point investment on EA. Investing into intel exclusively for Critical Strike build point cost savings on my hitter is lacking whereas the 3 strength elf wizard/thrower hybrid is no worse the wear and is in fact stronger than ever given the encumbrance changes on EA.

And on that note…

-Moderate int casting needs a boost. It seems your acid orb (for instance) does 18 damage with 2-22 intel and only really increases in damage with 25+ and even then after investing another 6 points into necro and meditation. Given the limited number of skill increases each book I read should give me a sense of progression and increased ability where it currently does not. On a related note.. now I'm not saying my All Strength Human Wizard (Or whatever) should hit as well as a ASGW or cast as well as a AIEW but there should be some kind of middle ground. I'd guess Myst is extremely lackluster currently.

-Speaking of middle ground.. the EXP rate is now over-tuned (from a lower level perspective), it needs to be somewhere between the EA launch and the recent patch. I was getting more exp from bats in RR at a higher level than I would on FF. The economic balancing you guys did seems just right so far.

All in all excited to see where this project goes, good work and I look forward to continued testing.

leek1

Would be nice to see mana displayed as XX/YY. Or someway of seeing current vs max.

Also this.

Khego

Loving the nostalgia of the OG Legacy gear but some level of gearing would be more fun and interactive, Searching for loot and making gear choices is fun! And the current gear, specifically without all the STR enchants, leaves non-melee with little to none of the fun. A few possible suggestions:

1) Tuned down Fin Fortress Armor. Example:

*Familiar Warlord -- Level 1 Req -- +2% MDM/piece

*Proficient Warlord -- Level 30 Req -- +5% MDM/piece

*Expert Warlord -- Level 60 Req -- +8% MDM/piece

*Master Warlord -- Level 90 Req -- +12% MDM/piece

2) Increase design space to include non-melee on existing Iron through Adamantium range:

*TIER 1 - Level 1: Iron >> Leather >> Cloth

*TIER 2 - Level 25: Steel >> Troll Leather >> Pixie Cloth

*TIER 3 - Level 50: Myth >> Imp Leather >> Faery Cloth

*TIER 4 - Level 75: Obs >> Daemon Leather >> Nymph Cloth

*TIER 5 - Level 100: Adm >> Kilrog Leather >> Seraph Cloth

3) Expand on #2 by also adding permanent buff applications via consumables. Examples:

*Scroll of Attack Power I: Permanently adds +2% MDM to a piece of armor

*Scroll of Attack Power II: Permanently adds +5% MDM to a piece of armor

*Scroll of Carrying I: Permanently adds +2% carrying capacity to a piece of armor

*Scroll of Carrying II: Permanently adds +4% carrying capacity to a piece of armor

*Scroll of Quickness I: Permanently adds +1 movement speed to a piece of armor

*Scroll of Quickness II: Permanently adds +2 movement speed to a piece of armor

*Other design space: +Health, +Mana, +Armor, +Spell Circle SDM%, +Spell Circle Resistance%, +Good/Evil MDM%

*Items can only receive ONE of these permanent buffs (Choices!!)

*Buffs can be rare chase items and/or very expensive gold sink items

*None of the traditional enchants which leave 0 choice to the player!

descript

Love the idea of this server. Back during Codemasters/Norseman forums I used to harp about scaling from 1k to 100; to force build point scarcity, get more diverse builds, and to make balancing easier.

I made a Giant Warrior (which I rarely do), and when the wipe comes I am definitely moving to a Human or Orc Warrior. I also run an ADEW, always have and always will, and I really like the tradeoffs I face. I probably will not learn any Throwing Knives and just do magic and acro. But thats cool, because the next person who makes an ADEW might go throwers/CS/acro.

With build points alone, other races feel more balanced as hitters. You get some tangible payoff for having dex (and intel) as a hitter. That said, I still think the AIEW will reign supreme for Wizards. Since intel affects how many spell circles one can learn, mana and obviously spell power. You get huge return on intel as a caster.

leek1

I sat around clicking through the character creation menu today thinking about suitable Arena builds and came to the conclusion build point cost is a major impediment to creative build crafting currently to the point where one must build around a reduction in training costs (Most notably those associated with critical strike and/or meditation). Given build point costs were designed for a level cap of 500 from version 3x launch it seems an adjustment to a level cap of 100 would be prudent.

Even the increased intelligence and dexterity of orc and human hitters isn't enough to net substantial build point cost savings. Hell, one of the worst characters I experimented with for build point cost was the balanced 15/15/9/9 elf warrior.

In a revised skill cost system I'd personally like to see a level of balance which is not so loose as to allow characters to master every skill as is currently possible on FF but allow more flexibility than mastering 2-3 skills at most. Seeing characters capable of mastering 4-5 skills seems more reasonable.

Likewise too many, imo, skills are calculate through int and/or dex placing a huge premium on those stats and making elf wizards by far the most efficient character to build upon in current EA.

Michael M

Pickpocketing sucks right now.

I understand that you are trying to increase PvP options, but having an NPC thief steal all of your gold is annoying as hell. I'm fine with players pickpocketing (although I doubt many will spend the build points), but being pickpocketed by an NPC is not fun for anyone.

Khego

I sat around clicking through the character creation menu today thinking about suitable Arena builds and came to the conclusion build point cost is a major impediment to creative build crafting currently to the point where one must build around a reduction in training costs (Most notably those associated with critical strike and/or meditation). Given build point costs were designed for a level cap of 500 from version 3x launch it seems an adjustment to a level cap of 100 would be prudent.

A little torn here… I feel your pain, I did a similar exercise and to make a sword+board toon actually effective seemed near impossible (~50 build points for GM Longsword and M Shield Usage)

But reduced costs, to your other point, would just allow that AIEW to GM more magic circles.

While I love the choices, "Do I really NEED level 4 shield?" I'm afraid the power level of balanced toons who made these choices will pale compared to AIEW.

Perhaps there's a happy medium in either reducing costs of skills using dex (Critical Strike, Acrobatics, Shield Usage)? Or giving non-wizard classes a bump in starting skills. Example (Shooting from hip, haven't done any math):

*Warrior: Starts at expert level in all 2H weapons

*Adv: Starts at expert level in Longsword and Shield

*Thief: Starts at expert level Acrobatics and Critical Strike

descript

I am reminded of one of Sanderson's rules for magic systems in fiction writing. "Weaknesses, limits and costs are more interesting than powers."
Costs lead to tradeoffs which lead to a more diverse set of characters and thus play styles.

ASGW Doesn't need to GM Critical Striking. He/She has 24 base strength. That's where their damage comes from. Likewise they have 15 base Endurance, they don't need acro. An elf or human needs both of those to be of any relevance. I think we have been conditioned to assume that we need to GM a weapon/crit/acro as a hitter. Why not get to Expert in both and spend the other build points on something else? Thinking needs to fundamentally shift on a server with a level cap of 100.
From a high level, that's how it always is though: the game rules affect what stats and characters are most efficient. When 3.x introduced the tiered Mysticism system, that meant that for the most part, you built characters around certain intel thresholds. Base 9 intel + 1 RoI gave you a 5/7 stun. If you had base 11 intel, those points were wasted since you still had a 5/7 stun with 1 RoI (and couldnt get to 6/9 unless you had 3 Int items). Just because a character had 11 intel it didn't make them useless, just less efficient than one built completely around the game rules. The proliferation of ASGW was in part due to Str/Dex enchants on everything, and in part by unlimited skill learning. If the rules change, then viability of character types change.
That said, there can definitely be tweaking around the edges as far as stats and how they affect skill costs, but I think that should be done on an as-needed basis. Plus there is always the option of keeping costs exactly the same but making the skill more effective so its more worth the cost. I like the idea of knowing that toons with identical stats might have different skills and play styles (now we need a viable weapon of every kind so mace/club/maul/short sword are all viable options)

I think Khego's idea of adjusting the starting skills is a good one (as you could, for example, make an ASGT just to take advantage of those BP-expensive skills). Or perhaps increasing the starting build points from 3 to 6 or something would work too.

leek1

IMO a solution to consider would be removing stat calculations from build point costs and assign a fixed build point costs to every skill irrespective of it being a ASGW, AIEW, or anything in between. A baseline cost of 25 (4 GM skills) build points to go from unskilled to Grand Master in a skill seems reasonable.

One still has to make choices, for instance a Elf Wizard could have GM throwing, crit, med, and one school of magic or select 3 schools of magic and meditation, or dabble in different levels of expertise among several schools of magic and skills to maximize flexibility.

A Giant could go all in on a longsword, shield use, acrobatics, critical strike but have zero utility. Likewise, under this system one could take the same Giant and instead of being 100% committed to the role of a melee combatant/tank, he could invest in a school of magic like elementalism for weapon buffs, theugism for potions and orbs utility, critical strike and a two-hander to create a more well-rounded adventurer-type character.

Its restrictive enough to force player choice but flexible enough you can build what you want while also rewarding atypical build point distribution.

descript

That's true leek1, and I would be down for that. In fact, it might promote more character build diversity which would be a goal of any system I voted for.

EDIT: Upon further thoughts, I feel dex would have to play a more important role in misses and critical strikes, so that non-ASGW are viable

leek1

Mana is in a good place with the most recent update. Same with availability of money VS maintenance costs.

Let me use Orbs of G. Heal, Healing etc in combat.

Orbs of Holding, or a newbie wizard with expert myst should have a better than 1/10 chance to land a Hold Monster.

The duration of weapon buffs such as flame blade, venom, etc are also greatly improved and just right.

While I like the changes to melee cleave, "Human" NPCs such as Warriors are cleaving the shit out of my groups. Not saying its a bad addition, just noting it. Warrior NPCs can body two toons in one round if they have low endurance.

The duration of some "body" buffs such as empower, nimble, and immolation are either unchanged (My giant wizard casts immo and it last approximately 3 rounds of combat whereas flame blade lasts multiple fights) or need additional duration increases.

The 2k per fight exp ceiling should be removed. I got into some hellacious multiple enemy fights in N. Leinster/Kurz Road at a lower level than I probably should have been hunting there and prevailed (https://tinyurl.com/y966ks2h), and was rewarded with the same experience as if I took on one run of the mill single troll. Reward risk taking. The exp grind is brutal enough as is (exp rates are about right as of the most recent update) that if I want to expose myself to higher level hunting grounds and thus PVP risks, throw me a bone.

Spellcasting needs a smoother curve incremental power gain. My elf wizard can go from level 1 meditation and level 2 elementalism and have fire orb do 22 damage to level 2 meditation and level 3 elementalism and my fire orb does 22-30 damage. That is a minimum of 9 build points for no significant increase in offensive power. My adventurer is critting for 100+ with his training blade.

Bring over the randomized loot from the challenger server. Let me find a +2 INT, venom enchanted Iron Club. Let me find a -1 Endurance troll leather tunic that procs acid rain and gives me +1 dodge. Make them unrepairable if you want, but make it interesting. Even in 2x you had unique weapons for purchase every couple levels. A tempered steel maul and mithril armor for 90 levels isn't engaging.

I know you've mentioned enterprising players rolling characters to cast remove curse, but for the love of god sell scrolls of remove curse or let me give an offering to/pray at a statute of/temple of one of the Gods to remove curse. Make that cost 1,000 gold if need be. One early Ring of Enfeeblement equip can cripple a character. I literally deleted low level characters rather than deal with it.

If someone gets killed in PVP, send out a global yellow text message. If someone plugs in PVP, send out a global yellow text message. I want to talk smack, cheer on winners, and shame pluggers which will build sense of community around PVP engagements.

I like the changes to Shield Use. I'd love to see other skills like Acrobatics, Theurgism, Alchemy, Trap skills, Lockpicking, etc see additional uses.

I still think skills should cost 25 build points to go from unskilled to GM irrespective of how high or low your governing stats are. Start characters with 1 build point, they should have exactly 100 at their disposal at level 100.

leek1

Also for the purposes of testing henceforth you need to crank the exp to like 100x rate now that the standard rate has been fine tuned. Im done killing lost sailors for hours on new toons to test this stuff.

Khego

Dearest leek1,

Mana is in a good place with the most recent update. Same with availability of money VS maintenance costs.

I'd agree mana feels pretty good. I'm never bored waiting for mana regen, but on harder fights the smaller pool forces choices.

I'd say there's still too much gold. As evidenced by piles of unwanted shop food big enough to crash my client. However, I don't think it's "lower vendor prices or increase repair costs". I think it's "add a few interesting gold sinks". Also, insurance would naturally be higher if there was interesting armor to wear (And people would leave insurance on, instead of toggling off since they don't mind losing 1 of 7 RoEs).

While I like the changes to melee cleave, "Human" NPCs such as Warriors are cleaving the shit out of my groups. Not saying its a bad addition, just noting it. Warrior NPCs can body two toons in one round if they have low endurance.

Low endurance is a choice and here's the punish :D Also, learn to shift :rofl:

Bring over the randomized loot from the challenger server. Let me find a +2 INT, venom enchanted Iron Club. Let me find a -1 Endurance troll leather tunic that procs acid rain and gives me +1 dodge. Make them unrepairable if you want, but make it interesting. Even in 2x you had unique weapons for purchase every couple levels. A tempered steel maul and mithril armor for 90 levels isn't engaging.

If not this, please see my post a few back. Agreed, something more engaging would be swell. I'm level 87 and in newbie shirt/pants.

I still think skills should cost 25 build points to go from unskilled to GM irrespective of how high or low your governing stats are. Start characters with 1 build point, they should have exactly 100 at their disposal at level 100.

Not sure about this one. Feels like it lessens choice, in character building and skill point allocation. All "character type A" would eventually choose the same 4 skills but a specific build would be better at them. Example; ASGW vs a more balanced hitter. In it's current form, the more balanced hitter gets a benefit in more skills and the ASGW gets a benefit in more raw damage.

Khego

Is it possible to add a min-max level for entry to the shared dungeons? I.E. – Targoths Tomb is for level 1-30 players. Fenris Caves is for level 10-50 players. (Shooting from hip on numbers here)

It's pretty hard to resist ganking someone when the world boss tab shows me exactly where they are. And as much as I enjoy griefing newbs, I'm sure there's some out there who can be more malevolent in their griefing than me.

Think this would promote more PvP in the long term as well. One thing I've found with FF (and even on EA yesterday) is people have just never done it and 25 years later are kind of embarrassed to ask how. They don't want to learn vs. someone they know will kill them but maybe more eager to learn against a more equally balanced opponent?

Gimli (Staff)

The ganking problem is something I've been thinking about. I'm not sure if level restricting is the solution or if you just need to de-incentivize outside of a level range. I.e. a level 100 can attack and kill a level 5 player but they will get no gold and the player will lose no experience or gold/items?

Khego

The ganking problem is something I've been thinking about. I'm not sure if level restricting is the solution or if you just need to de-incentivize outside of a level range. I.e. a level 100 can attack and kill a level 5 player but they will get no gold and the player will lose no experience or gold/items?

There's really no incentive now besides griefing. Yeah, I can grab the ~1000 gold insurance but I'm already leaving shop food on the ground as there's nothing to buy.

descript

Bring over the randomized loot from the challenger server. Let me find a +2 INT, venom enchanted Iron Club. Let me find a -1 Endurance troll leather tunic that procs acid rain and gives me +1 dodge. Make them unrepairable if you want, but make it interesting. Even in 2x you had unique weapons for purchase every couple levels. A tempered steel maul and mithril armor for 90 levels isn't engaging.

I am strongly against bringing many more items into play that have an effect on combat; specifically PvP, don't care if they affect PvE really. Competitiveness in PvP will devolve into a race of collecting items with l33t buffs, and character choice and player skill will take a back seat.
I would be fine with rare and unique items that only affect PvE. Club of Undead Destruction and The Imp Slayer Broadsword would be fine. Super rare cosmetic-only items would be fine too. But please don't add many items with stats, shields or other buffs.

Khego

Some minor consistency/clarity items, by Khego. Not suggesting to fix all these, just observations.

Melee Dagger and Claw have 1 range. Range is 2 on FF. IMO, range of 2 is required to even consider using.

Short Sword is an INT weapon but to learn the skill, the required build points are based on STR+DEX.

Unarmed/Fist is a DEX weapon but to learn; STR+DEX.

Theurgism (as I understand it) rolls on END for the item use/value. To learn the skill; DEX+INT.

Thief starts with level 2 shortsword and level 1 dagger. Suggestions: Revise to level 2 throwing and level 1 dagger.

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