Dexterity - Melee 2hander

Question about Dexterity while using a melee weapon such as a 2hander.

1. Does it improve your chance to hit the target? aka HitChance
2. Does it improve your chance to crit the target? aka CritChance

Yes Dex does help you to hit the target, not sure what the magic "base" numbers would be before you notice a loss of hits.
As Dex is a stackable enchant on gear Im not sure if theer is a toon build that would suffer using just the base Dex stats with no points added.

True, I've just noticed that ASGW miss quite often. Wondering if a hybrid Str/Dex Giant warrior build would be more beneficial to increase hit chance and crit chance vs. the typical ASGW. something like 16/15/2/15 or 17/14/2/15.

Hey,

I thought I'd share this info/data but before I do I want to preface it by saying it isn't perfect. I did not do nearly enough testing for this to be scientific. But since there isn't a ton of good data on this I thought I'd present it anyway.

When the server was in beta testing I tested several warrior builds using GM Maul and GM Crit with no buffs using an unenchanted temp steel maul vs devils.

Across these tests ASGW with stats of 24/7/2/15 had the largest "average miss %" at 62.15% of swings.

This is almost double the average miss of other tests. Most were around 30%.

What I was mostly using to measure was "damage per round". Meaning if a build hit super hard but only hit 1 time per round due to misses it would actually score less than a build that hit consistently but for lower amounts per hit.

Additionally there was a fairly big difference between 12 dex and 14 dex in my tests. Unfortunately I did not test a build with 13 dex. Only the builds with 14 dex or more had "no zero rounds" meaning no rounds where every swing was a miss/dodge. Any build with 12 dex or less had some rounds where they did zero total damage.

As an example of the result my 20/11/2/15 giant scored 170.46 dmg/round whereas the 24/7/2/15 ASGW scored only 119.74 which was actually the lowest among all my tests. ASGW certainly had the largest single test hit but due to abysmal accuracy scored low overall.

Like I said I didn't do hundreds of tests (but I did fight multiple devils per build, it's not like it was just 1 fight each) and I didn't do enchanted values or anything. I was just looking to test base dex values and accuracy but ended up not devoting enough time to it. I never intended to share the data, so please take it for what it is.

Charlie,

That is some really interesting information. Nice work.

I (too) have wondered how dexterity affected two hand weapons in terms of hit rate. I would not question your 60% findings. It definitely feels like that as my ASGW is absolutely dreadful.

This could definitely use more testing. It would give me something to do.

How did you test it? You mentioned using base stats with GM Maul and Crit. What and where did you fight? I guess it wouldn't matter that much as long as it is consistent.

Cough Gimli Cough… can we get a test server back up again? :P

From my memory of combat back-in-the-day, underwhelming results are what one would expect from an ASGW without fully enchanted gear. I suspect that once they have str+dex on every piece (further inflating their MDM and giving them a good hit chance) they "parse" as the powerhouse they've always been held to be. It'd be nice to see someone test it though.

How did you test it? You mentioned using base stats with GM Maul and Crit. What and where did you fight? I guess it wouldn't matter that much as long as it is consistent.

I fought only single devils in killing fields. I used exp baubles to put every test warrior at the same level, trained only those skills, and tried to keep other variables small. Of course, there is level difference in the devils in KF so not every test was conducted on the same level devil. Some things just weren't possible.

Keep in mind dexterity also affects critical hit chance!

Hybrid, or Str/Dex warrior builds seem to me, to be perfectly viable. Frankly, for newer players, I'd say it's probably even recommended. The age old, roll ASGW for a newbie, isn't really the best anymore. If you have great starting gear (fully chanted RoEs, AoC, a Mirage Claymore or other magic weapon, or at least FIVES ADM, etc…) then the missing woes won't be an issue for you.

This pretty much holds true at end game too. Fully geared ASGWs, are still going to be beasts, and since MDM is a % based, as the base numbers get higher (with higher level weapons) the exponential increase gets larger. MDM difference of say 40% isn't noticable when you hit 53-100, as much (or lower if you're using ADM weapon.) When you hit 200-400? Much more noticeable.

"As an example of the result my 20/11/2/15 giant scored 170.46 dmg/round whereas the 24/7/2/15 ASGW scored only 119.74 which was actually the lowest among all my tests. ASGW certainly had the largest single test hit but due to abysmal accuracy scored low overall."

This is not really a surprise, but those problems don't occur as much once you have chanted gear, and at a certain Dex point where you're not missing nearly as much, and your top end damage is significantly higher, the ASGW probably catches up. I don't think crit chances are going to outweigh that.

Ultimately, running a warrior with some Dex, is going to make life easier for you till the 300s, without doubt. After that? high strength really starts to take over, and the MDM %s really kick on due to higher base damage ranges. ASGWs will always be the most powerful end game hitters. The question is, are the other sacrifices to get there, worth it?

It definitely seemed true in my tests that there was an accuracy scale versus those devils that was easy to hit diminishing returns on.

I think the real question is whether this scale is absolute or whether it's based on a mob's stats.

So for example, 14 dex was a key point in my tests on those devils. This means that an ASGW, once enchanted, will certainly exceed 14 dex and catch up to the accuracy of the other builds vs those devils.

However…

It doesn't necessarily mean that an ASGW's accuracy will ever catch up and rival other build's accuracy on higher level/higher dex mobs. A build that starts 4 dex down will still be 4 dex down in equal gear later.

I'll confess I've made an assumption here, but my assumption has always been that this revamp of dex is based in part on the enemy's stats and therefore the results of my test will continue to scale. There's no good data on this point either way, though, so this assumption could be entirely incorrect.

@Gimli can you say if the EM/Champ/Pro's have higher Dex than Devils?

Bump, Gimli can you verify the question above that EM/Champ/Pro have higher dodge chance than Devils?

Also on a side note, any chance you can tell us how much each point of Dex increases our chance to Crit? Unfortunately Crit % is not trackeable through the UI and I feel it makes it a less wanted stat because people feel it is useless. I feel you providing this data will help us realize if it is actually worth anything or not.

The hit chance is pretty much meaningless once you get enchants. Even starting fresh you should be fully enchanted within a week or two of playing. I wouldn't build a character around what it is like to have no enchants. The critical strike % is interesting and it would be nice to get some info on this. If you can get near the same DPS with a str/dex vs an all str I would take the str/dex for dodging purposes and faster initiative.